180* engine. help needed

Dennis

Banned
After some trouble shooting, i found out that my engine was turned 180 degress. I have driven vmax4 since 1993 and never heard of a 180 engine before i joined vmax4.com.

when i found out, i just swapped engine with another engine i had. I was certain it had spun because it had stock cdi. stock Cans. but it did have some bender stickers on it.
I finally got to take engine apart to confirm this, but to my surprise, it had welded cranks.

So, what to do? And what else is modified?
engine is from 93

do i put it back to 90* if so, in what direction do i turn the crank compared to the other.
Snowmobile is only used for trail/hillclimb.



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Dennis.
ln your bottom picture where the 2 punch dots are aligned is this how the cranks are 180 firing?

lf so turn the inside (or outside) crank 180 and fit. lt doesn't matter which one you turn to do this

From the factory these dots are aligned for 90 firing, when some shops index and weld cranks for 180 firing they press the gear of and re mount it to make it easier to assemble.

l found this out the hard way fitting a pair of bender cranks.:beathead:

The trail modded Bender engines ive seen have had the window (hole) in the piston opened up a little. Usually on the Bender trial motors i have seen you will find a series of dot punch marks on the heads and cyl like the pic below.
 

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Note if this sled is firing at 180 the ignition system has been altered. You will have to return the ignition system to 90 degrees as well!
 
.Thank you for replies
Yes the dots are alligned at 180* So i just turn one crank 90*(180*?) either direction. Ok. had to make sure.
Ihave to chek Again tomorrow if there is any dots on the heads.
When i got the snowmobile it only ran on 2 cyl.. i am using the snowmobile now with another 750 engine. and i did not have to change anything to make the 90* engine run. that is also why i thought the engine had spun..

I also have a 800 engine with crank issues. is it possible to use 800 top end on the 750 buttom without any modifications?
and just run it with 800 carbs and 800 y pipes.?
 
800 topend will work on 750 bottom end. You will need to get some piston pin adapters. I have done this. Hauck sells the adapters. I ended up having a couple given to me and then I had a local machine shop make me a set. You need 8 in total. They go on the ends of the piston pins.
 
lf where you have the cranks now it set for 180 with the two dots lined up, rotate the inside crank 180 degrees. you can roll them on a bench its kinda awkward, but you will be able to see if its right
 
Thanks.
I think i will keep it a 750 then.

@twostrokeaddict
I don't know if i understand you right. when the dots line up, it fires 180. if i turn one crank 180, then it will still fire 180.
But goes from piston position: up Down Down up, to up Down up Down, then.

Is it possible to go back to 90* at all when gear has been pressed off and rewelded at 180*?
 
...........................you have lost me Dennis, l have some cranks in the shed of despair, i will go and have a look tomorrow and do you a little tutorial with pictures :)
 
The weld on the bigger gear looks as though it is broken and has spun? I have seen this happen when a poor weld is made on the gears.Can anybody else see this?
 
l think you are right Apsley, two welds look rotated and one (bottom left) looks like it only took to the gear and not the shaft.

Jobs gotta be done by those that know what they are doing.
 
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the crank has spun. you are right about that welding. i assumed it was grinding marks, did not imagine that welding could crack. but when i looked at it Again closely, the welding is very poor. (need glasses also)
Sorry for taking your time. I should have notised this from the start. I am just amazed that it has spun to a perfect 180* engine.
 
No apologies needed Dennis, its always helps to have other sets of eyes on a project. lve seen welds break before, including those done by the ''best in the business''. Your welds don't look like they had much penetration, a backfire could have made it twist. When you get them welded try and get someone to do it that can also balance them.
 
Dennis,

I have been following this thread. It goes along with a lot of others that have tried to address the same issue through the years. I usually don't get involved but I can't help myself this time.

This whole issue of cranks "spinning" is sometimes misunderstood. A crankshaft "spins" anytime the engine runs. The issue of crank phase problems appeared in the early years of Vmax4 racing when engines were operated in an rpm range that created a harmonic vibration. (9200+) This was believed due to the unequal mass of the two crankshaft halves and the final drive design. The difference in weight is due to the respective drive gears. You see this clearly in your photos. Most engines will have a harmonic in some range but they are designed so this effect is not in the normal operating range. Vmax4 750s were designed around a power peak of about 8200-8300 rpms.

The harmonic vibration under load, had the potential to cause the drive gears which are pressed on to the crankshaft, to move a few degrees. This would in effect change ignition timing. They did not "spin" but moved very slightly. I believe very few people with Vmax4s ever really had this happen even though so many who were disappointed with their sled's performance claimed they did. The '92s are believed to be most prone to this issue because Yamaha tightened the press fit specifications on the 93 and 94s.

My point is, you must take the crankshaft to a person qualified to do crank repair. The shop will be able to accurately check the connecting rods for the proper orientation. You can choose to set up the crankshaft so the cylinders fire in pairs 180 degrees apart or individually 90 degrees apart. The 180 degree firing solution was believed to have some canceling effect on the harmonic at the 9200 rpm and higher range it started to develop. We have run motors set up that way for years. I couldn't say whether they or vibrated less or not. This was just the prevailing advice. The 800s don't really require the change since the crank is quite different. Each end of the crank has a gear of the same size. Both halves of the crank mesh with the output shaft gears and there are dampers. We have run them over 10,000 in race form. They will take that in a 90 degree configuration. Some still set them to 180 firing to be safe. Some in prostock setups even eliminated the damping feature because that cushioning would cause a slight timing variance when the motor was loaded hard from the likes of a 6000 rpm clutch engagement on good hard ice.

You didn't mention in the original post how this motor ran before it was disassembled, unless I missed it. The crank gears in the photos were obviously welded. They were either welded in the correct positions on the crank or they were not. You may be right that there are grind marks. It's hard to tell. In order to set up the gears in the right orientation, if they were welded incorrectly, you would have to grind the welds, press the gear off and press it back on in the right place. If the engine was assembled you could get a rough idea by setting the piston in cylinder one at TDC like is mentioned and checking the other pistons' relation to each other. You must at least have dial indicators to do this. Remember, the ignition is triggered by a specific point on the flywheel. The CDI has no idea what position the pistons are in. If they are slightly out of phase the ignition timing will be off.

Please have someone who knows cranks check it out with the proper instruments. It may save you a lot of grief. Sorry if this whole rant offends anyone. It isn't meant to. Just trying to help.

Good luck. Please keep us informed on what you find out.
 
I will have to send the cranks to usa to get them repaired. there is nobody here in greenland that is able to indeks a crank.
But it will have to wait a bit. when time comes i am sure i can get some info in here, about where to go with them.
Now i will disassamble the 800 engine to see what is wrong with it. maybe it will be cheaper to fix it. I think it have something to do with those dampers you wrote about, big bore 904. Engine runs, but when i turn engine slowly back and forward abit only one crank turns and the other don't. I will find out what is wrong soon.
I have a 94 long track and a 95, parts snowmobiles. i was thinking of rebuilding one of them, I don't want to be too expensive this time. before i joined vmax4.com my vmax was all stock. Now it has 800 drivetrain antiracket axle 1.75 track, scIII skid raised handlebar, hydraulic brakes Wahl bros. shocks in front, tony's clutch setup, all new bearings. one get carried away sometimes. but it was not cheap in the end.The only way to get parts from usa is by air. But it is forgotten every time i start the engine up. :)
I don't know the history of the 750 engine. i bought as is. not running. but it must have been imported used, when it came to greenland. i have only heard of 2 other vmax4 that was imported used back then. it was two bender big bores, with bender colors. but there was always something wrong with them. i never saw them drive.
 


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