2-stroke vs 4-stroke

[MaxV]

Ive been looking around and noticing that the new yami 4-strokes are making like 130-150hp with only 1000ccs. Usually 2-strokes have a lot more horsepower than 4s but the vmax800 only has 150 and although its 200ccs less i would expect the difference to be greater. So how come these 4-strokes are getting high horsepower like they are???

[Ike]

That 4-cylinder Apex engine revs higher than 2-strokes to make 150hp ( 10 200 rpm I think). And it has fuel injection, 5 valves / cylider etc. high tech features. Computer controlled engines use the energy of the fuel better than the decade old Vmax4 engine.

This is just how I see things. Anyoner else?

Ike

[JERSEYJOE]

Right on IKE. Yamaha has had this motor in the R1 since 98. It's scienced out and bulletproof. In the APEX it's detuned since the streetbike version gets over 180 HP I think. Mostly like IKE said, 5 valves, high compression, fuel injection and most of all electronic engine controls. Look at some of the new cars and the performance AND emissions levels AND the great fuel economy. The new Vette can run circles around any of the mid 60's and 70's big blocks and pass emisions and get 25 MPG. The magic of Science. I have not had a chance to ride my new APEX yet but I will very soon. I am interested to see if it impresses me the same way my 2001 SRX does. I have my doubts. I only bought it for it's touring ability, and I'll leave the beatings for the SRX and the VMAX 4.

[twistedmax4]

Not true the Apex Genisis motor was built for this application. Its not the same as the R1 motor, it was designed for snowmobile applications from the beginning. But Ike is right it revs higher and has a wider powerband range. I have alot of info on this including a factory artical I'll see if I can get it scanned and on here soon....mike:super:

[Ike]

The R1 has around 180hp, but that is with the "ram air" effect. In high speeds the air is forced to the engine = more hp. + that engine in a bike rev waayyy higher than what it revs in the sled.

As an example of new high tech engine´s :

Got to love the modern diesel engine´s too. I have 04 Toyota Corolla Wagon which has the 1,4 litre turbodiesel in it. Yes, I know. It´s a small car with small engine. No V8 or anything, but with our fuel prices it´s the car for me. I get around 4 litres / 100 km that is like 50+ MPG. Enough torgue to houl two sleds in a trailer too.

Ike

[JERSEYJOE]

Twiste dMax is correct. I meant that the " technology " of the R1 motor has been developed and proven for over 5 years. Sure the snowmobile verision is different not having an actual transmission incorporated into the cases. Imagine if sleds ever evolve into shiftable monsters like street bikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Master of Faster]

The Apex motor makes its extra power mostly from the redesigned head, cams, and lighter crank. Power wise its not all that far off from the R-1 motors. Yamaha claims 180hp but in reality I believe they make low 160's on a realistic dyno.

Clutched APEX RTX's in Wisconsin are running 121.6 mph on radar already! Best I heard stock RX-1 run was 119.2 mph.

New four-strokes are gonna fly.

[MaxV]

A 4-stroke revving higher than a 2-stroke?? Thats not cool

If you maxxed both motors out in high performance stuff and machining, but kept the stock displacment, which one do you think would make more power???

[Exciter570]

here's my take,... 2 strokes make power easier than four strokes do, so it takes more displacement and technology to get the 4 stroke to make the same power that a 2 stroke does. This said, 4-stroke motors are more durable (stronger) engines than a 2 stroke which means they can handle more serious add ons, (i.e. turbo's) better than a 2 stroke is able to. Now, that being said I'd say a fully decked out APEX with the best turbo out there and any other perf. add ons would make a ton more power than a 2-stroke with all the add ons. Yes, 2 strokes make power easier at first, but it's easier to add mammoth amounts of power to a 4 stroke (if you have the money). I could be wrong but from what I've heard turbo set ups on 2 strokes aren't as reliable or able to run high amounts of boost compared to their 4 stroke counterparts.

[Ike]

Simons CPR is on 550HP with their record braking RX... 400HP is quite usual for turbo Yammies nowdays. :sheep

IKe

[Master of Faster]

I agree with exciter, initially a 2-stroke is A LOT easier to make power with, but if you've got the big bucks you can push these new 4strokes to have in excess of 500 hp.

However that is limited to the world of snowmobiles, in the quad world for instance, 4-strokes are years away from being able to touch the modified two-strokes.

It's sad to think that if the technology that was put toward 4-strokes today would have been put toward developing two-strokes for the last 15 years, we would have stock 200+ hp dependable trail machines.

[YAMMIEGOD 3:16]

AND WITH ALL SAID, THE 4 STROKE NEEDS A TURBO OR NOS TO DOMINATE. WHERE A 2 STROKE DOSE NOT. IN THE EVERYDAY WORLD OF SNOWMOBILES WHERE MOST DON,T HAVE TURBO,s, 2 STROKES AGAINST EVERYDAY 4 STROKES IS A JOKE. TWO STROKES CRUSH THEM. NOW MAYBE THE APEXX WILL CHANGE THIS, BUT THE RX-1 SHURE DID,NT. 3:16 (tony)

[Master of Faster]

Yammiegod, what do you think about the Apex's posting 120+ mph on radars already. That's pretty impressive...

[Lewis]

Yeah MOF, it is true that it is mostly limited to the snowmobile world for the big HP, although quads and dirtbikes, for one are made to make power over time etc.. they could make lots of power easy, just people need to get their heads outta their asses and add a cylinder or two, a one-cylinder engine can only go so far, even if bored right the the walls.
Lewis

[Master of Faster]

That's true Lewis, quads and bikes are only running one cylinder 4-strokes to keep the weight respectable.

My twin-cyl 65hp Banshee is lighter than many of the new 30hp four-strokes. That single cylinder is their major downfall, but I'm not sure they can go twin and still stay light enough.

[Joemax]

The 700cc yamaha raptor is a single cylinder 4-stroke 4-wheeler!

[Master of Faster]

Raptor = sssssslllllllllllloooooooowwwwwwwwww :frech11:

[Joemax]

I heard 90mph stock!

[Master of Faster]

NOT EVER, 70-72 mph at best. My Banshee will just pull 90mph in the 1/4with over $1200 in portwork and headwork, huge gearing, plus big carbs and the list goes on. Whoever told you 90mph is blowing smoke...

[YAMMIEGOD 3:16]

DUDE, I MUST SAY I HAVE WAY BETTER GOOD FEELING FOR THE APPEX THAN THE RX-1. I ACTUALLY FEEL VERY CUROUIS ABOUT THE APPEX. NEVER DID THE RX-1 LITE MY FIRE. I HAD ALREADY POSTED THAT THE GUYS ON THE DYNO TECH RESERCH TEAM FOR THE OLD FORGE SHOOTOUT ARE FRIENDS OF MINE. WE TALK YESTURDAY ABOUT THE SKI-DOO FAST ONE. THEY ALSO KNOW I LIVE AND BREATH YAMAHA AND SAID THE APPEX WAS VERY INPRESSIVE. ALL THEY COULD TELL ME. I RACED A APPEX LAST WEEK AT JACOBEYS WITH MY 95 VMAX 800, BEAT HIM PRETTY BAD. JUST OUTGUNNED HIM AS FARR AS SET-UP, BUT HE DID LOOK GOOD. ! 3:16 (tony)

[MaxV]

here's my take,... 2 strokes make power easier than four strokes do, so it takes more displacement and technology to get the 4 stroke to make the same power that a 2 stroke does. This said, 4-stroke motors are more durable (stronger) engines than a 2 stroke which means they can handle more serious add ons, (i.e. turbo's) better than a 2 stroke is able to. Now, that being said I'd say a fully decked out APEX with the best turbo out there and any other perf. add ons would make a ton more power than a 2-stroke with all the add ons. Yes, 2 strokes make power easier at first, but it's easier to add mammoth amounts of power to a 4 stroke (if you have the money). I could be wrong but from what I've heard turbo set ups on 2 strokes aren't as reliable or able to run high amounts of boost compared to their 4 stroke counterparts.

Why would a 2-stroke be less durable???

Does anybody know why turbocharging doesnt work well with 2-stroke motors?? I was thinking maybe it had to do with having extra pressure under the piston that pushes back up on it and also i would think much of the turbo pressure would just run out the exhaust port and not really give it as much of a charge. I really like 2-strokes, i think they have more potential than 4-strokes but some good engineering needs to go into making them adapt well with forced induction. Maybe somehow make the intake charge be pumped directly into the cylinder instead of going into the crankcase, with a supercharger since the turbo would have to spool up and the motor couldnt idle without it. And somehow chamber the exhaust so that there is a brief backpressure until the piston clears the exhaust port on its way up into compression

I really wish companies would get into that suff, it seems like they are going to start letting 2-strokes die the way they did with 4-wheelers, and that sucks :(

[fastmax]

MaxV... You have almost described the old gm 2stroke diesel there. Keep on thinking...you may be on to something.;)
I my opinion the ol GM is one of the best engineered 2-strokes of all time! Take some of that 60+year old technology,mix it with todays computerized electronic stuff,and see what comes out the other end.

[twistedmax4]

There will be one (Apex)at the shootout this week and we'll see how it runs. I have a dyno sheet from the factory and it shows 149.8 on the dyno, I'll bring it with me to the shootout...2 strokes are made to race 4 strokes are made for long durability and gas milage and a ton of other reasons. Isn't that why we all still hold on to our max4's.:banghead: ...mike

[YAMMIEGOD 3:16]

MIKE, THE APPEX THAT WILL BE USED AT THE SHOOTOUT WILL INPRESS, ALL I CAN SAY !! 3:16 (tony)

[twistedmax4]

How did you like it Tony?Hehe we can't spoil it for them. Man they can do some trick things with them. Doug brownelle was the guy who delivered it to the dyno shop. He is one of the guys who work the demo ride circuit with me.....mike:bowdown:

[YAMMIEGOD 3:16]

DUDE, I HEAR YA. APPEX GONNA BE AWSOME SLED. ALMOST MAKES A OLD FART TWO STROKE FAN LIKE ME WANT ONE. ANYWAYS SKIDOO STOLE THE SHOW IN THE DYNO SESSIONS ANYWAY. THE APPEX COULD OF HAD A BIG BLOCK CHEVY IN IT AND NOBODY WOULD OF NOTICED AFTER THE SKIDOO CAPER!! SEE YA FRIDAY. 3:16 (tony)

[fastmax]

I am trying to figure out how talk the wife into a new apex.She keeps telling me there is nothing wrong with my vmax4.I already used up the trick of you need a new sled dear.Any ideas? :muahaha:

[jeff242424]

it is eaiser to ask for forgivness than to ask for permission, a wise man once told me, it works.
that is how i got my v-4!!!!!
Rick
ps...the making up is fun too so you get your cake and eat it too.....

[Ike]

it is eaiser to ask for forgivness than to ask for permission, a wise man once told me, it works.
that is how i got my v-4!!!!!
Rick
ps...the making up is fun too so you get your cake and eat it too.....

I have to remember this one.... :frech32: :muahaha:

Ike

[Exciter570]

Why would a 2-stroke be less durable???


2-strokes don't have the longevity of 4-strokes, I can't really explain why, but when have you ever heard of a 2-stroke engine going over 10-15k miles without any kind of rebuild, look at 4-stroke engines in cars for example they can go 100k miles+ without a rebuild, now the 4-stroke engines in the newer sleds haven't been proven to be as reliable as auto engines yet, but they've only been around a few years and the most I've heard on one of the new 4-stroke engines is 20K miles without a rebuild,(was in an issue of snowmobile mag.) try to get a 2-stroke to do that. I'm not a 4 stroke advocate or anything, I like both, but bottom line is that a 4-stroke engine is more durable and will have a longer life span. I do believe turbos on 2-strokes are more prone to blow the engine than on 4-strokes, again, I don't know exactly why, but that's my understanding.

[twistedmax4]

Tony the SkiDoo guys must be sceptical to try and rig this so early in the year. At least they caught it. Had a question for ya, is the race at weidmans open for everyone or by invitation only? How many 4's do you have comming out to run? It would be cool to get all the NY 4's together for a few runs and some pictures. Sorry guys didn't mean to hyjack this thread, The Apex is gonna rock :hyjack: :bowdown:

[a4play]

sorry for intrupting im just wondering how many hp are the vmax 4 750? stock? sorry for the but in

[vmax4rules]

sorry for intrupting im just wondering how many hp are the vmax 4 750? stock? sorry for the but in

1992 135hp
1993-4 140hp

[a4play]

thanks alot, how much hp does aftermarket pipes give to a 2 stroke? and how much does it give to these 4cyl, is it more noticeable with 2 stroke vs 4stroke

[MaxV]

MaxV... You have almost described the old gm 2stroke diesel there. Keep on thinking...you may be on to something.;)
I my opinion the ol GM is one of the best engineered 2-strokes of all time! Take some of that 60+year old technology,mix it with todays computerized electronic stuff,and see what comes out the other end.

Ok I looked up how those things work and thats what I was thinking except they use valves which is stupid, they should have used like a rotory valve in an exhaust port or something so you didnt have a cam. So a 2-stroke spark ignition engine with a 2-stroke diesel set up, thats freaking perfect, you could have oil in the crankcase so no mixing, no reeds, many more tweaking possibilities, tons more power. You could have one running with the supercharger sucking air through the carb so it atomizes it a crapload better and then there would be no issue of pressure not letting gas in correctly, and also in some applications a turbocharger could be combined with the supercharger to get a turbo motor and just have the supercharger feed enough air to run the motor (maybe 1 pound boost for lowend and throttle response). And on top of that you wouldnt have to screw around with tuning a 2-stroke pipe since this would make an expansion chamber useless and it would be better to just run a big straight pipe. Its like a super-2-stroke

It would be no less durable than a 4-stroke considering they make ones already that are diesel and those are bulletproof motors.

I wish I had a machine shop so I could make a motor like that, it would dominate all

[fastmax]

MaxV.. now yank the ol diesel fuel injector and stick in a computer controled.electonicly fired gas one......forget about carbs. I see you are 17years young...invent this engine and you will change the industry.:sled:

[MaxV]

yeah fuel injection would give alot better control over the motor, and its invaluable when working with forced induction motors.

I would really like to build a motor like this, I plan on going to tech school for cars when I get out of high school so maybe someday I can :)

[YAMMIEGOD 3:16]

DUDE,TO TELL YA THE TRUTH, THE WEIDMANS POST WAS MORE OF A JOKE ON MY PART JUST TO GET THE COMPETITON GOING. I DON,T RUN EITHER OF MY VMAX 4,s THERE BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME, THE SNOW IS TOO DEEP OVER THERE. SO I BEEN BRINGING MY 2002 SRX OUT THERE. I CAN,T ANSWER WHAT SKI-DOO WAS THINKING, JUST TRYING TO THROW A RINGER IN. GLAD THEY GOT CAUGHT. ! 3:16 (tony)